The 4 Exercises Your Low Back Is Better Without
If you have information that will be taken as controversial, but has pretty much been proven correct, do you tell everyone the dirty little secret? Or do you stay silent because you don’t want to piss people off?
I have debated writing this article for a while. Should I do it? Should I not do it? I’m doing it. I feel like it will allow people to have informed consent about what they do in a gym. Sure, maybe less people will “like” my page, but that doesn’t matter to me as much as presenting the best information that is out there and helping people live life to the fullest (aka not hurting).
People will take this information in one of two ways: As a personal attack and get pissed and argue about it OR as a learning opportunity. I ate a big piece of humble pie when I learned it.
I have lived personally what I am about to tell you guys. I have been doing CrossFit® since 2007 almost exclusively. I like CrossFit®. I think CrossFit® is about taking the best components of many different areas of exercise/movement/lifting and putting them into one program. If a movement isn't beneficial/has unnecessary risk of injury, it doesn't mean I dislike CROSSFIT® because of it, it means I don’t like that particular exercise/movement and CrossFit® as a methodology would be better without it. I hope that makes sense.
This article is about your low back and repetitive low back rounding exercises, basically low back pain and situps, GHD sit-ups, toes to bar, knees to elbow, and how it all relates.
Now, I am not some joe schmoe whining about this. I do CrossFit®, I treat people with low back pain, and MOST importantly for this article, I have lived this. I know what it’s like to wake up with low back pain every day for a year (and I was a decent crossfitter before having exercise-limiting-back-pain for 18 months...My grace was 2:29, Isabel 2:50, fran 3:17, max DL: 450, max BS: 350, mile: 5:59). Nothing is the same as living through something yourself. Reading a book about low back pain doesn’t even come close to living it and seeing it through.
General Lumbar Spine Anatomy
In order to lift the veil, so to speak, on low back pain, there is a fundamental amount of anatomical knowledge you have to have. Opinions don’t matter here. You don’t get to have an opinion on anatomy. Anatomy just exists and we have to accept that.
If you read my article on kipping HSPU, you know some basic spinal anatomy. The lumbar spine is more or less the same in structure. There are 5 vertebrae called L1, L2, L3, L4, L5. There is a disc between each pair of vertebrae. There are nerves that come out between each pair of vertebrae. And there is a stocking of connective tissue around the whole thing and then layer upon layer of muscle on top of that. We could name all those structures but, for our purposes, it doesn’t matter. The concepts matter.
General Disc Anatomy
There is a disc between every vertebra in the spine (minus the top couple). The disc is basically made up of two things, an outer circular portion called the annulus and an inner squishier part called the nucleus. A disc herniation occurs when the outer circular part has tears in it and then the squishy inside squirts out. You can also get tears in the outer circular part without the squishy nucleus stuff coming out.
A very interesting thing to note in the anatomy of the disc is that ONLY the outer 1/3 of the disc can feel pain! So you could potentially damage just shy of 2/3 of it without feeling pain. “My back doesn’t hurt when I do that”…yet. When someone “throws out their back” from bending forward and picking up a pencil, that crap was brewing for awhile. Misusing the lumbar spine over an extended period of time is the most common reason people injure it. It isn’t from one wrong move.
Motor Control
When you bend forward, or when you move any joint for that matter, ligaments really aren’t on tension until you get to the end range, so they aren’t loaded. What this means is that when you bend forward or round your low back, you don’t really put strain on the ligaments SO LONG AS YOUR MUSCLES ARE KEEPING YOU FROM END RANGE. This seems fine, right? Well there is this thing called the flexion-relaxation phenomenon that happens when people round their low back: the muscles relax and people end up hanging on their ligaments and discs. Not good. I would guess most people don’t have good enough control to prevent that from happening. Maybe 1% do, but definitely not the majority. That takes specific training to be able to do that.
Logic
What do you care more about? How fast you can kick your feet to a pull up bar or how much you can squat, deadlift, clean, and snatch? I think most people would agree: lifting stuff. So we have to ask ourselves the following question: what is the biggest issue we see in the deadlift, squat, clean, and snatch? The low back rounds.
What are the things we do to train our core? GHD sit ups? Toes to bar? Sit ups? Knees to elbows?
The muscles of the lumbar spine are best suited to stop motion, not create it.
If low back rounding is one of the most common flaws we see in lifting, why are we doing “core training” that teaches us to repetitively round our spines? In all the lifts, the job of the muscles of the spine is to HOLD THE LOW BACK IN ONE POSITION. Why aren’t we training it like that? We should train the spinal muscles in a way that teaches them to do what we want them to do (which is to resist rounding so force can be transferred from the hips and up to the shoulders). Don’t train the spine to generate power. Power gets generated at the hips.
Training the low back to move would be the same as trying to improve your squat by training your hips to NOT move!
I think we can agree that doesn’t make sense. If we see someone sitting with a rounded low back we tell them, “Hey that is a crappy position”…”now go round your low back 150 times in the wod”. That doesn’t make sense to me.
Why do we do repetitive spine rounding exercises? What are we trying to train? Honestly ask yourself this question. If toes to bar weren’t in competitions, would you train them? They aren’t making your deadlift and squat better. They are training your brain how to be really good at rounding your low back. You are spending time training your low back to do exactly what you don’t want it to do.
Research
If you don’t know who Stuart McGill is, you should google him right now. First thing, his mustache destroys yours. Instant respect. And second, he is a PhD in spine biomechanics, writes authoritative textbooks on low back pain, and is the go-to guy for professional athletes that have low back pain. And then those professional athletes win. Oh and he probably trained the person who trained the person who trained the person who trained the person who trains you.
What Stuart McGill’s research tells us is that exercises that require high repetitions of lumbar spine flexion and extension (low back rounding to fully extended) have the greatest potential tear that outer circular annulus layer of your disc, cause disc herniations, and can damage spinal ligaments. I can tell you from first-hand experience, both because I had these issues and I treat people who have these issues, that those things SUCK. It definitely didn’t make me fitter…
In the lab, when using spinal specimens, McGill’s research showed that
the most reliable way to herniate a disc in the low back was to basically put it through lots of reps of situps.
Here are a few links to studies McGill was part of.
There is probably "minimal effective dose" to lumbar spine rounding, meaning there is SOME amount of flexion that will make the spine more resilient in that movement. I don't think we know what that is at this point in time and we may never know since it probably varies substantially from person to person.
My Thoughts
I have probably done more toes to bars and sit-ups and GHD situps than most people reading this, so it was a really hard pill for me to swallow when I learned what the research said about these types of exercises. But then I got to thinking, why DO people do those exercises? I teach this stuff at my coach’s course and at first people look like they want to kill me. But then when we start having an honest discussion about it and think about WHY we are doing the things we are doing, it starts to make sense.
If you want to make your “core” stronger, train it to do what you functionally want it to do, which is transfer power, not create it.
Anytime we challenge pre-conceived notions or ways that we have been doing things, it’s challenging. If we change, it means we are admitting we are wrong. I think of it like this: if I don’t change, I am not learning and I am probably missing the bigger picture. People used to think if someone had a disease you could bleed the disease out of them. Wouldn’t it be silly if we still did that knowing what we know now? As we learn, we should change.
Invariably I get asked this question: Well what if I can do toes to bars and NOT go to full end range (not fully round)? I say: great! I don’t have a problem with touching your toes to a bar. I have a problem with exercises that go through a full spinal range of motion. If people can do it without going to full end range, then that’s fine. I just don’t think most people can.
Invariably I also get asked this question: Well what the heck do we do instead of toes to bar? My answer: You are asking the wrong question. The real question is do you even need to replace it? To me that’s like saying, “If I take donuts out of my paleo diet, what should I replace them with to lose weight?” Maybe you don’t need to add anything at all, you just need to take the junk out.
I expect some backlash and criticism because of this article and that is fine. You should definitely challenge what you read. Just because it’s online doesn’t mean its true! So let me just end with a few things.
- Why do most people do crossfit? Why do people exercise? To feel better, to get stronger, etc. Injuring low backs does not help to achieve that goal.
- The military has been taught to not have their people do sit-ups anymore because so many people’s backs are getting jacked up. It is unfortunate this hasn’t been fully implemented yet.
- I am not criticizing crossfit methodology with this article. I want to encourage the implementation of it, which has ALWAYS been to get rid of the not-so-good stuff and keep the good stuff. It is time to follow the methodology of constant refinement.
- I see crossfit patients all day long that are suffering from low back pain and all I do is take out the repetitive low back rounding exercises and they get better. Proof is in the pudding. “GHDs make my back hurt”. Ever heard that?
- If you want to help the longevity of crossfit, the awesomeness of crossfit, the improvement of crossfit, please join me in not programming these movements and not putting them in competitions.
- If you are a competitor, it’s inevitable that there will be competitions with these movements in them. This goes back to the idea of training versus competing. If you want to be decent at the movements, you will have to train them to a degree. The goal would be to do as few as possible to make sure you can perform them competently in a competition.
Need help with your lower back and hip mobility?
Follow our program, which will show you exactly what to do and how
Need help with your lower back and hip mobility?
Follow our program, which will show you exactly what to do and how
What to Read Next
Top 5 Exercises to Work On Your Hip Extension
Top 5 Exercises to Work On Your Hip ExtensionIntroductionIn this article, we will cover: What hip extension is The difference between global extension and hip extension The muscles that control the pelvis and the muscles being stretched when the hip joint is more...
Why Your Lower Back Hurts When Sitting and What to Do About It
Why Your Lower Back Hurts When Sitting and What to Do About ItIntroductionThere are a handful of reasons why your lower back may hurt while sitting, so it’s impossible for an article on the internet such as this to explain to you exactly why your back hurts, but since...
Ultimate Guide to Hip Mobility
Ultimate Guide to Hip MobilityThis article is designed to be your go-to resource for hip mobility, both in understanding it theoretically and the practical implementation of doing the work or guiding others through the work. You can learn all you want about the human...
Comments
Good info! What do you recommend doing to strengthen and aesthetically change the mid section when you remove all the well known exercises that supposedly do that?
Hey Fiona,
In my opinion, eating well is the best way to aesthetically change the mid section!
Thanks for reading,
Ryan
Hi sir, this all makes sense. how soon can I start training my back muscles with gentle extensions following severe prolapse and total loss of all cartiledge to the L5/S1?
right now I’m in tremendous pain and hamstrings also completly locked up.
how long should I rest in bed for? and will walking cause the vertebra to rub creating bad bone spurs? I already have at least one bad spur close to nerves foramen developing as shown in my scan
if i can strenghten my back slowly back to full strenghth and halt the degeneration yes please
The abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym. Lift heavy, lift safe. Pick it up, Put it Down.
louie simmons would say, "one armed heavy dumbbell press"
I'm not sure I follow your argument completely. If people are doing squats and cleans and so forth properly they are training their lower back to not be rounded. Doing T2B and Situps is then not training the lower back to do a different movement, it's training other muscles that are doing the work (e.g., abs and lats in T2B). Further, in CrossFit now almost everyone uses AbMats for situps and GHD situps, if done properly, don't have a lower back rounding as the hip flexors should be kicking in to finish the movement before there would be rounding. Finally, if repetitive body weight movements that round the lower back are so dangerous, shouldn't we be stopping gymnasts from doing all those pikes and V-Ups they do?
Hello,
You are correct, if they are doing those movements, they are training to resist lumbar flexion. I am not sure that AbMats reduce lumbar flexion at the top of the situp, so I don't think it is a superior movement to "not abmat situps". I am not against GHD situps if people can do them without hinging through their low back under a load. Unfortunately I don't think most people can. So if someone is going to play with fire, they should be very diligent.
Gymnasts have a lot of back problems.
Thanks for reading!
Ryan
In CrossFit a sit up finishes touching your toes. In that position unless your arms are double the length of your legs you are rounding the back for sure. If we were able to go all 5he way back and 5hen stop ay the 90% degree angle I think the abs did their work. What work do the abs do by crunching from 90 to touch of the toe anyway... Its starting to down on me that the low back pain in the sit ups is that particular last piece of it.
Great info, based on solid science, but it still looks like loaded lumbar flexion in the video.
Hey Jill,
Yes the video shows an exercise I do not recommend. It is a reality that many people will still do toes to bar and other spinal flexion exercises with a load despite the current research. The video is intended to do it as least bad as it may be able to be done IMO.
Hey Jill,
I agree. The video does indeed show loaded lumbar flexion. Whether I like them or not, people will still do toes to bar until a great shift occurs. I advise they don't do that, but if they insist, I will try to show them a "better" way, so to speak. Thanks for reading!
Ryan
The only thing I disagree with (and wish I didn't) is that our military has that the military has been taught to not have their people do sit-ups anymore. It is still alive and well and unfortunately not going anywhere anytime soon. This is something I deal with daily and as long as it's in the pt tests, it will be done in pt. Great article and thanks for sharing. I love your take on making Crossfit better.
Hey Susan,
I believe they have been advised to take them out, but you are correct, sit ups are still alive and well in the military. Hopefully at some point we will see them go away.
Thanks for reading!
I have two herniated discs and a bulged disc......all three degenerated from my years in the Marine Corps. What core strengthening exercises do you recommend? Obviously variations of planks, but I am hoping there are more challenging yet safe techniques to utilize.
deadlifts! squats! kettlebell swings!
Dude I know this is an old thread, but I certainly hope you completely ignored this guys advise to do deadlifts, squats and KB swings to strengthen your core, given your back issues! Deadlifts, if done correctly, are for the hamstrings and glutes. Its not a core excercise and it will compromise your lower back. Front squats can assist with core strengthening. KB swings have a poor risk/reward ratio if your back is already compromised. To get abs and not hurt your back - hang from a straight bar and do knees raises or straight legs raises to 90 degrees. Also try seated Russian twists with a 25lb kettle ball and planks. Include of course cardio, high intensity or interval training and cutting of body fat. That's the prescription for getting a tight core.
I think you need to thoroughly understand which muscles make up the core. Some literature points to up to 24 muscles that compose it. Glutes, for one are definitely a core muscle.
What are you talking about? Deadlifts are 100% a great core exercise. Yes they target your hammies and gluts but they definitely engage your core and about as functionally as you can get as well.
You must be a troll. Or some guy who read some stuff on the net by some "experts" and never deadlifted heavy. Because if you did, then you would know that it taxes a lot more than the hamstrings and glutes. With good technique and making sure you don't round your back, it is unlikely you will hurt your back. Swings aren't bad for your back if you don't use shitty technique. It's not the exercise, it's bad technique and shitty trainers that cause injuries. Anything that forces you to stabilize your spine and/or torso against great shear forces will end up working your core. So basically every compound movements around. Even pull ups have great core activation. Not kipping pull ups of course.
I have to laugh at your cardio and fat loss advice. He asked for core strengthening, not to see shredded abs per se. Fat loss and cardio have no relation to core training, except perhaps to make pull ups easier. Maybe sprints help with the core a bit, since you need to stablilize your torso, but it's way easier to scale and progress in intensity with squats and deadlifts than trying to "sprint faster". He also might be contraindicated against running or cycling due to his injuries. So it's definitely still easier to start deadlifting/squatting with an empty oly bar and slowly work up 5 lb every other session or something.
Loaded carries. Better than the power lifts for core training.
So if you do the floor version of toes-to-bar, but basically just let the legs go perpendicular to the floor, (and no further) aren't you effectively training the abs on the leg lowering portion, without adding in lumbar curve? That seems like a reasonable solution. A hanging leg lift where the legs lift parallel to the floor would create the same effect, no?
On the other hand, there are situations all the time in which the lumbar spine rounds forward. Why wouldn't we want to train our body to handle that movement rather than avoid it at all costs? Whether someone bends down to tie a shoe, bends forward to stretch, or ends up on an airline seat for hours, lumbar curve is going to happen in life.
I'm willing to eliminate sit-up movements from my workout, but I still question the "spine must always be in neutral" assertions that I read here and elsewhere.
Hey Ruby thanks for the question.
I apologize my message may have not been 100% conveyed as well as it could have been. I am by no means against flexion of the lumbar spine. It is critical for maintaining a health disc. There is no way the discs could get the nutrients they need to be healthy if the spine was never flexed.
The point I was hoping to get across was that if you repetitively do lumbar spine flexion as an exercise, especially with an added compressive load, you may be putting the posterior-lateral disc elements at risk.
People need to learn how to control their lumbar spine in all positions because in real life, all those positions will occur.
However, when people are training for metabolic conditioning, I don't think it is necessarily the best choice to choose an exercise that puts so much motion through the spine for so many reps while fatigued.
I hope that helps!
The spine should not be only kept in neutral! But under load during exercise, that probably is the best choice.
interesting point, what do you think of the Reverse Hyper machine, created by Westside Barbell (Louie Simmons) , it's said to have saved a lot of backs. honest question btw, I would really like to know what u think.
Hey Hassan,
I am sure it is a matter of dosage. Hard to argue that a lot of people have been helped by it according to what I have heard Simmons talk about.
I personally don't use it or have people use it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be effective for the right person at the right time with the right dosage.
I think people should proceed with caution before using it to treat their own back pain without being evaluated!
Leon Chaitow, Gray Cook, and Craig Leibenson all address and specialize in what your article is talking about. I don't think taking out a movement is the answer. I think training and bracing properly are key. If you are rounding you back, you need to know how to properly stabilize the lumbar spine and work on mobility. Most cases people round from lack of flexibility and lose abdominal tension. Glute inactivity is also a huge culprit. Our bodies were made for mobility. Just not doing something isn't the answer.
Hey Vickie,
Thanks for your comment!
I think taking out a repetitive spinal flexion movement from strength and conditioning is exactly the thing to do.
Even if you properly "stabilize the spine", you still get mechanical disc pressure and movement, which over time, when done in amounts that exceed the body's ability to adapt, can delaminate the disc and cause disc bulging, herniation, and low back pain.
There are lots of things my body is physically capable of that don't make sense to do as an exercise to build strength and metabolic capacity. These 4 are definitely on that list.
Thanks for reading!
p.s. McGill wrote the lumbar spine chapter in Liebenson's book 🙂
" If you are rounding you back, you need to know how to properly
stabilize the lumbar spine and work on mobility. Most cases people round
from lack of flexibility and lose abdominal tension. Glute inactivity
is also a huge culprit."
If you're rounding your back then you probably have too much abdominal tension than not enough. Also, glut inactivity tends to lead to rounding of the back to compensate - lumbar erectors try to compensate for lack of hip E (due to underactive gluts).
Informative post. While working out at gym one must take care of all these above things. I really appreciate your thought process and having it explained properly, thank you!
For products, accessories and apparels -http://www.gripped.com.au/
Hi,
I have an exaggerated lumbar extension aka Lumbar lordosis kyphosis. It have no pain but however wanna fix my posture, do you have any advices? Im used to hold hip stretches for extended periods of time but it seems to improve a little then come back to the original posture. I would like to know more about it as Ive done a lot of exercises such as plank /glute bridges/ swiss ball exercises for hamstrings but it seems to help only temporarily.
Yann
Love your article and freedom of speech - i have nt done cross fit so can't comment, but do feel if we don't have optimal posture when doing any form of movement we will get compression then injury. Also everyones range of movement is different- Beighton scale , i try and keep my clients flexion free as life today is constantly in flexion, also i try an do as much multi plane work rather than constant saggital.
But how do i get abs then and not jack up my back!?
It's a great question. There are two ways to get better defined abs: muscle hypertrophy and decreased body fat. Doing flexion at high repetitions probably won't really hypertrophy the abs as it trains more endurance. Doing very challenging isometrics will be the better bet. And eating to decrease body fat.
To get abs and not hurt your back - hang from a straight bar and do knees raises or straight legs raises to 90 degrees. Also try seated Russian twists with a 25lb kettle ball. Include of course cardio, high intensity or interval training and cutting of body fat. That's the prescription for getting abs to show if you are elimination crunches and situps from your routine.
Laminectomy/disectomy L4/L5 in 1995.
I was paralyzed from the waste down, bent over to the left 90 degrees. They pain was so unbearable for Years I wanted to just end it all. The last time My back "went out" was from bending over to pick up a pencil! Tru story!
I lived thru the pain, finally had surgery and opted NOT to go with Fusion. Best decision ever!
I can do anything and everything You can do.
At 55, I'm still like a cat on the ground and like a monkey on a ladder. I can still do any sport, BUT, I will pay for it later that night with leg cramps...( picture Your Ham locking in at 90 degrees and every muscle in Your calf twitching on it's own in complete random ).... But it's a small price to pay to be able to walk and run and bike and everything else for the last 20 years.
You just have to sensible about Your activities, be fit and have a strong mind and will.
I went in on a Wheelchair, went out Dancing and on My first return checkup - a month later - did a cartwheel in the Hospital hallway for My Doctor and His entourage!
He was furious, and thrilled at the same time!
There is Hope! Don't give in! Don't give Up!
And NO, I still don't "work out" like You guys do,
But I can work and I enjoy My Life to the fullest!
I should also mention I gave up sitting down 20 years ago....way too much pressure on My lower spine from rounding! Sit straight folks, don't slouch, and pay attention to this Guy!
And Thank You to You, and My Doc, Dr Kwok!
Note: both L4/L5 discs were totally destroyed and removed. My spine grew bone laminates around the left over disc masses resulting in My back deformity.
My spine was straight after removing the bone laminates and I'm also about an inch and a bit shorter.
Hello Ryan, really enjoyed your article. I have never done CF and was debating trying it out, however.....I have lumbar issues- 3 annular tears, a bulging disc and inward curvature of L4L5. I understand eliminating certain exercises but am concerned that I may not reading recognize some of these exercises as low back harming, ie. sit ups. Is CF something I should even delve into?
Hello! I just recently came across this/your blog and want to say great job! I am a personal trainer in Massachusetts and read all of Stuart McGill's stuff as well as Grey Cook, Mike Boyle, Craig Leibenson, etc. I was even lucky enough this past summer to travel to Canada and visit with Dr. McGill as my husband suffers from back issues. He was able to get an appointment with Dr. McGill and I was able to learn from him first hand. Greatest experience thus far in my education (I believe trainers should never, never stop learning) So, I absolutely agree with your blog and thank you for writing it. I see way to many people doing repetitive spinal flexion exercises thinking they are doing their body good when in reality they are not. We need to spread the word of Dr. McGill's and other's findings and teach the better way to train the core and aid in what the core is designed to do for us as just ordinary functioning humans as well as athletes.
Thanks again for helping to spread this important information!!
Great article man! Its brave on your part to write on a controversial topic. I tried crossfit for several months and ended up with daily low back pain. Once, I stopped the pain was gone. I love your idea about refining crossfit so that its safer for the competitors/athletes. Also love your writing style, very engaging and easy to follow. Keep up the great work.
-Fellow clinician and Co-author of Squatuniversity
I would like to ask about the effectiveness of the "hanging" crunch devices for body core development.
I ask about the equipment where one grads the vertical hand bars and the hangs the lower body while resting on the forearms; then doing knee lifts and other core exercises.
Is this concept of hanging the lower vertebrae to open the disc space a good thing or bad?
Someone please give me advice here --- 🙂 🙂
I think if it's done in low reps, it's fine. There is increased compression of the disc because of the hip flexor contraction
Had microdiscectomy (L4-L5) in Jan 2017 and now doing physical therapy. I think I have come to the conclusion that sit ups can't be a part of my workout regimen any longer. What do you think about ab mats? Is there enough lumbar support to justify doing this movement?
Great advice. As a physio I recently signed up for Crossfit, but couldn't continue with it due to these specific exercises. I don't understand why they would include repetitive lumbar flexion for 'abdominal strength.' It's the frustrating thing about crossfit; there are so many good elements, but the few negative elements make it hard for a physio to fully accept and participate in. Keep up the good work mate.
wow Do you have also something for the nek while I had 3 whiplash and a operation neck hernia
Not at this time, but I may write something in the future
What about ab rollers?
Thanks for the article. I agree that people don't like to be told they're wrong, but, in the 80's, we were told "No pain, No gain". And it took thirty years to find out that this was wrong. (I'm actually at the dieting end of the spectrum, where it took *forty* years to find out that we should lower our simple carb intake, rather than saturated fat one, but that's a different story!)
[…] Exercises your low back is better without […]
Hi there! I know this article was written several years ago now, but I am just finding it after doing some research on CrossFit and disc injuries as I'm suffering from herniation/bulging disc problems. Was wondering if burpees are included in the list of movements to avoid . . I can't see how I could even do a burpee without rounding my back since you basically do a forward fold to get to the ground as well as when you jump your legs forward to get back up. Would that be considered rounding your back under load as well? Thanks for this article!
[…] The 4 Exercises Your Low Back Is Better Without | The Movement Fix. […]